Title: Gay Marriage? PART 1
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Blog Entry: The following is a blog I wrote for facebook. It got many many responses and criticisms: nearly 200. I will be adding be adding other's comments in this blog as well, so that the readers on WeVoteRight.com can read the progression of the debate.. [br] [br] KEY: C: stands for Conservative Debater[br] L: stands for Liberal Debater[br] Not all of the Conservatives and Liberals are the same people, but in order to protect privacy, I will group each sides of the argument. [br] [br] C: Gay Marriage is definitely an issue that i feel strongly about. And if youre one of my friends, you know im 100% against it. And here's why it should not be permitted. First of all, i dont believe you can truly have a gay marriage. The definition according to the dictionary of "marriage" is "the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law". Opposite sex. The End. Besides, marriage is not only a legal bond but a holy one. The Catholic Church declares same sex marriage as being invalid, and not to be harsh or anything, but how can any TRUE Catholic take part in something that their Church is against? [br] [br] Now we move onto the issue of Civil Unions. There are people who might say, "Okay, we cant change the definition of marriage, thats fine, but what about Civil Unions? We can just get one of those." Um, no. A civil union implies sexual activity. As Catholics, we believe sex outside of marriage is wrong, and a civil union is not marriage. [br] [br] In my honest opinion, i dont think there is such a thing as "gay" or "lesbian". We're all people, and we're all different. I think those who consider themselves attracted to their same sex are confused, and I can tell you why. And this is going to sound VERY stereotypical of a christian conservative, but I think the problem is the media. The music we listen to, the shows we see, the movies we watch, they all influence us in ways we arent aware of. The teenage years can be tough. Bodies are changing all over the place, with all these strange liquids and eww... But its also a time of attraction. With the media encouraging gay awareness, many teenagers (and insecure adults) begin to question their sexuality. "Am I gay?" has popped into MANY minds. And then most of us shrug it off. I believe the attraction between same sex couples is nothing more than a mere admiration of the other's qualities, and often we confuse that with sexual attraction. [br] [br] To all of you AGAINST gay marriage, but thinks it should be a STATES RIGHT to choose weather or not to legalize it: [br] I can see where youre coming from, and i nearly fell into that river too. We do not want our country to be run by religion, and many people dont even want to be influenced by it (this is a different topic, ill get on that one later), but the fact is that all of our decisions come from our morals, and our morals come from religion. So there really is no escaping it. About the states rights issue, come on...this issue is hundreds of years old! You dont believe gay marriage is right or moral, yet you think the states should choose... lets talk about the most FAMOUS incident of states rights EVER. Slavery. Im sorry, but do YOU think we should put slavery back up on our "to do list"? Because thats a states right issue too, isnt it? Its not right, its not moral, its not HUMAN, but that was an issue of states rights. So the same with gay marriage (and abortion btw). Its not right, but we still want to give states the option...i see... [br] [br] The states rights issue CAN be tricky, so to those of you who just blindly agreed with me, i should raise another question. How far will we go? If we dont give states the right for SOMETHING, we wont be America. To me, gay rights is wrong. Others might think its right. How long will it be before someone comes into power who claims he follows religion, and pours our rights down the drain? Granted, I dont think the states rights issue is the way to go. AT ALL. I DO think the problem is centuries old, and if you wanted to legalize gay marriage you should STOP trying to get it through "states rights". Be creative. [br] [br] Thanks for reading. If you did. That is my rant, if i get any more ideas on this issue, i'll add it. :D[br] [br] L: I stronly believe in gay marriage. Sorry, I didnt read your rant - I'm a busy college student. But I think that two people can find love (which is the true base of marriage) even if they are of the same sex. Marriage shouldn't be about anything other than love. Denying two people the chance to openly and publicly express their emotions towards each other is wrong. And I don't think that we, as "straight" people, can fully comprehend the emotions of "gay" and "lesbian" people. But then again, I'm not Catholic so I don't really worry about those other tedious things. And, I really do admire your opinion so don't think I'm picking on you. :3[br] [br] L: I also believe in gay marriage. I don't think the Church should be forced to have gay marriages or recognize them, but they should respect them. And the United States should definitely legalize gay marriage. [br] I don't have time to analyze all your points but here's my opinion on a few. [br] 'The definition according to the dictionary of "marriage" is "the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law"'[br] The only reason this is the dictionary definition is because this is the traditional, original version of the word. Like many traditions, the concept of marriage is changing. Traditions and cultures are always changing. Even in the beginnings of the Catholic church, things that we now hold as sacraments, originally began from something else and evolve into what they are today. The Sacrament of Penance is an example of that. [br] [br] L: Jennifer, [br] I love you and I respect your opinion (it's a lot more well-informed and well-reasoned than a lot of the others that I've heard), but I can't agree with the fact that same-sex orientation comes from the media. I'm gay, and the media (both mainstream and Christian) had nothing to do with it. It's because that's simply who I'm physically attracted to. I agree that the media can have a strong influence on teens and young adults, but there are also a lot of teens that are struggling with questions about their sexual identity that have nothing to do with media influence and it can be a very scary time for them...believe me, I've been there. I was one of them[br] [br] L: Personally, my issue with gay marriage and the church is this: If the Catholic Church is supposed a religion of love, then why is it condemning something that is rooted in love. [br] Those that say gay relationships are against the Bible are overlooking the fact that the Bible says that slavery is okay. It also says that to eat the flesh of a dead pig makes you unclean. The fact is that the Bible was written in a completely different time. The Old Testament in particular, where many of the anti-gay statements come from, was written in such away that Jesus himself overthrew some of the content in it. Also, in Jesus' time, he reached out to the outcast and those shunned by society, the prostitutes and tax collectors. I believe that if Jesus Christ were on Earth today, he'd be far more welcome to homosexuals than the Church is. [br] Furthermore, the idea that the media is the reason for sexual preferences towards the same-sex is unlikely. Homosexual relations are littered throughout history. However, public opinion has not been tolerant or loving enough to accept any deviation from what is considered a "proper" relationship. [br] [br] C: you said that the Catholic Church condemns homosexuals. The Catholic Church does not condemn homosexuals, rather the act. In interpreting the Bible, we must be very careful on what we choose to interpret. If we begin to discard traditions and such with the excuse that the Bible is "outdated" or "old fashioned", then we will lose its meaning all together. The Bible was not meant to please us, but rather to speak God's word. We cannot pick and choose what we choose to be outdated and what we choose to be truth. Otherwise how can we tell? Yes Jesus stretched his hand to those who were persecuted, he did not justify prostitution just because prostitutes were marginalized. He told them to repent[br] On the media: In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its list of diagnostic disorders. In retrospect, this decision appears to have been inspired by political pressure rather than medical evidence. [br] [br] L: But why prevent gay marriage under US law? It is not unethical, so there is no basis for it to be illegal. I just want to know how you respond to that. [br] [br] C: Im pretty sure i know what your thinking. "Im not gay, it couldnt hurt, so why not?" Because the survival and prosperity of our society rests on the institution of marriage. As we have seen, healthy citizens are far more likely to be produced by intact marriages than by broken ones. Same-sex marriage would empty marriage of its meaning, make heterosexual marriages even more disposable, and undermine the health of our nation. The fact is, you need more than just love in a healthy marriage, that much is certain. I hate to sound so...I dont know what the word is, but homosexuals physically cant satisfy each other like a man and a woman can. Another factor to make a marriage successful is not only your private lie but your public life as well. The fact is, divorce rates would skyrocket, as many couples cant handle public disapproval. (Not saying you should always listen to the public, just mentioning the divorce rates) It is also a major public health issue, for obvious reasons. [br] [br] L: "The fact is, you need more than just love in a healthy marriage, that much is certain"-you. Actually that's not a fact, just an opinion. I think love is enough. Because with love you imply compatibility, trust, and a desire to be together, and it shouldn't be just "love", but rather unconditional love- that's what marriages need to work. And you said the "prosperity" of our country. Well, I'm pretty sure we'll prosper enough even with gay people. And how would you yourself know if a homosexual can please another of the same sex, when you, yourself are not. I don't know, and I don't pretend to know, because I'm straight and therefore haven't the faintest clue as to how they feel emotionally towards another of the same sex. But it's true, the government has no reason at all to prevent gay marriages. Just because you're Catholic doesn't mean the whole world is, and we, especially the government, should be tolerant and understanding of others. Also, as free, consenting adults, there is nothing wrong legally or ethically with what they do in the privacy of their own homes. [br] [br] C: Actually, love does not imply trust or compatibility. If it did, we would all marry our first loves, and that just doesnt happen. We can be in love with someone totally wrong for us. When I was speaking about the prosperity of our country, i was talking about the fact that a marriage is where it all starts. Even now, with children from divorced families, we see an effect. I myself am from a broken family, and i have seen the effect on myself and my little sisters. Children need a mother and a father, and not two of the same. [br] About me being Catholic, I am very much aware that not everyone is. I lived in a Muslim country for two years, and met tons of people with exotic religions, some of which I had never heard of before. I can only say what i believe, and if i were to say that i supported gay marriage even though i believed it was wrong, just to please people, i would be a hypocrite. And the Catholic church IS tolerant and understanding of others. Jesus took in the prostitutes and tax collectors. He did not condemn them as everyone else did, he ate with them. But he did not praise their actions. [br] And there is something wrong with the statement, "as free, consenting adults, there is nothing wrong legally or ethically with what they do in the privacy of their own homes." There can be many ethical or legal wrongs one can commit in the privacy of their own home. Murder, growing marijuana, underage drinking, they all can happen in the privacy of one's home. [br] [br] L: Now, I have to take offense. I have been able to respect what you have said so far, but you are not a doctor and as far as I know, you are not sitting on some hidden stockpile of 20+ years of contrary medical testimony. You have no idea what it is like to go through the process of months of psychiatric counseling. You have no idea what a suicide intervention feels like. I went through all of that in DC and I don't wish any of that on ANYONE. And for your information, it was not because I'm gay, it's because I was 3000 miles away from home and abandoned by all of the "friends" who turned on me the minute I was honest about who I was. I'm guessing you don't know what that's like either. So, please, think of others before you talk about "political pressure" over "medical evidence" because you have no idea what it's like to live that... [br] [br] C: Its true i have no idea what its like, and i apologize if it offends you. The statement "In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its list of diagnostic disorders. In retrospect, this decision appears to have been inspired by political pressure rather than medical evidence." was taken straight from the source, I didnt make it up. And yes, I do know what it feels like to be turned on by all my friends. Long story. [br] [br] L: How can you call it love if there's no trust or compatability? If you're in-love with someone wrong for you, thats not really love and most definetly just infatuation, which is easily mistaken for love. And when i said free consenting adults, i was obviously talking about SEX. I just didn't want to be impolite and say it out and loud but perhaps I have to for you to understand. There are tons of things that go on in homes that are wrong- like what you said, but I was speaking only of sex. The word "consenting" should have been a hint. As well, I think in the future that we will see more gay marriages, and since younger generations are being brought up to be accepting, I don't think the divorce rate would really sky rocket if gay marriage were legal. [br] I used to believe that "homosexuality" was a medical disorder, as well. And then I made some friends who happened to like the same sex, and some that liked both sexs--and being around them I began to realize that there was nothing "medically" wrong with them, just like how there's nothing wrong with me "medically" because I like boys. But, idk, to deny someone their personal freedom to choose who they want to be with is wrong on all levels. If I had a child who happened to be gay, I would only worry about their happiness, and nothing else. But then again I don't believe that there is a "natural" and "intended" way that we are supposed to live. [br] To me, there's far greater problems in the world to concern myself with than someone's sexuality. [br] [br] C: i dont believe that homosexuality is a medical disorder either, and the comment about the psychiatric society confirmed that. If it was, then gay marriage SHOULD be legal. [br] [br] C: Jennifer, [br] You have some very strong opinions and unlike the others who have commented her, I have to say, I completely agree with you. I know its hard to find people who share your opinions and can be very frusturating at times (I went through this whole ranting, crying, upset thing at school one day last week because i was so sick of people attacking me for holding the opinions I do) but know that there has got to be people out there who agree with you and if not, well, at least you have me :-) [br] [br] L: If you want to come from the Catholic side of this and be centered on that, God doesn't condone any love. no matter where it comes from who who it comes from. And as a Catholic I believe in Jesus Christ and he died for me to save my sins. this doesn't mean that I can go around interpreting the Bible and say that someone's love for another is wrong. No one and i mean NO ONE! chooses to live an oppressed life. no one CHOSE to be gay and no one CHOSE to be looked down upon (even though they shouldn't because not you nor I have that right or say...only God does if this is getting all religious) My sister is gay. she tells me all the time if she could be straight she would do it in a heart beat. but shes not. she isnt going to hide her happiness with another woman because of what people think of her. heres a little bit of what I had put in a paper.. [br] I believe in Gay rights. It is not only a personal conflict i face with each day just because the people i care about most happen to be gay. this too isn't correct for people to demand that they don't also have equal rights. Who do you think you are to say that someone shouldnt be happy in their life or to say what they should even do with their life? Don't judge someone for who they are and dont degrade them for who they have become-no one chose to live an oppressed life. Some of you say you are good Christians or even Catholics and say that it is wrong for people to judge, who are you to be a hypocrite when it comes to this and judge someone on their actions that have nothing to do with you? let them live the life they want with out your voice being heard. [br] [br] C: although, while I do think that the media plays a huge part in all of this, I don't think the problem lies entierly within the media. [br] [br] L: You don't go around asking everyone if it's alright for you to engage in any relation that you may have chosen, so why should they be any different? they dont deserve to be put in a section where they have to be voted on to be happy in life. [br] Being gay isnt a choice, it is what God has made you-God has made every single person unique and if that means that they are homosexual then let it be. it is a scientific imbalance of chemicals in your brain. nothing to do with the psychiatric ward. [br] Bringing religion into politics isnt right either....not every person in this country is Catholic never mind Christian. our country is based on freedom of choice and religion...some choose not to have religion. love is never wrong. if you arent gay dont look down upon or judge those who are, its not their fault if they are gay just like its not someones fault if they have been raised close minded. having gay rights is different than gay marriage as well. saying gay rights should be illegal means that they should have absolutely nothing to do with even the thought of being gay... taking away gay rights is taking away what our country was based on...freedom... [br] ill talk more about this later. and one more thing youre looking up something that was in 1973...thats over thirty years ago...we have new technology and more of an understanding as why things the way they are and i cant stress this enough but being gay is a chemical imbalance absolutely should not be even taken into consideration from the psychiatric ward! my gay sister and my friends and my sisters friends should not be evaluated by a psychiatric ward because of who they are! [br] oh and as to your response to rachel i thought it was VERY steryotypical for you to make and assumption that gay's are the only one with STD's. no they are not. in fact 1 out of every 4 people in the US alone have some sort of STD so are you saying that 1 out of every 4 people in the US is also gay and has had sex with the same gender and has an STD? and just to also let you know my sisters friend's have been in relationships and some even married and have gotten divorced because they later on realize that they are gay or got married (even in a catholic church) because they felt like they werent being accepted (and not to get too harsh) but they didnt feel accepted because of people like you that want to take away their rights as a human being and an american, divorce would not skyrocket because of gays that sounds 100% ridiculous. and the sexual life of others is none of yours to say if they are or are not satisfied sexually with who they decide to give themselves to. [br] [br] C: First of all, this note was not posted to try and convince anyone of anything, or to condemn or look down upon anyone. It was also not made as a board to fight on. It was made simply to organize my thoughts. And I have never EVER looked down on ANYONE who is gay or lesbian, i want that to be clear. If i havent mentioned it here yet, i DONT think we should act differently towards or look down upon homosexuals. I think theyre human beings (like everyone else) and they should be treated with respect and dignity. I dont judge them to act a certain way either. And i am not a hypocrite because of what i believe. On the sentence, "let them live the life they want with out your voice being heard." This is America, and I am allowed to have my own opinions. [br] btw, there is no clinical evidence that homosexuality is genetic, or any other kind of health issue. [br] On bringing religion into politics: What we believe comes from our religion. It would be hypocritical to claim to believe something, yet vote differently because we are afraid to bring our religion into politics. [br] and if you read correctly, i NEVER made the assumption that gays are the only ones with STD's. The transfer rate of STD's is statistically higher in homosexuals, and thats it. [br] And on the sentence, "but they didnt feel accepted because of people like you that want to take away their rights as a human being and an american", i have a good friend who is a lesbian, and getting married. I know she will face some hard times, and i dont agree with it, but i will DEFINITELY support her. If you know me, i am a very good person to talk to. I listen, i dont judge. She knows my position, but i am not one to sit and preach to her. I want to be there for her, which is what a good friend does. [br] [br] L: if youre trying to say that they dont deserve the rights of everyone else in this country including marriage, that is looking down upon them as well as taking away respect for them. i never said you didnt have a voice in this country, im just saying that i think what youre saying is wrong (this is all my opinion) and there is evidence you were just reading into things in 1973 rather than 2008... [br] i believe in my country and the people in it, its consideration for others as well as me. i have no right to say if one should or should not get married because of who they love and want to spend the rest of their lives with. Jesus never said 'DO NOT BELIEVE IN GAY MARRIAGE!" he said 'BELIEVE IN ME" and I do... [br] and if you also read correctly half of what i sent to you was from a paper and i didnt point out you specifically in my paper. i have a video that i actually cant find right this second, but it is of a man going around a neighbor hood knocking on doors asking them if it was alright if he married a certain woman. in the end it has a slide saying something along the lines of 'you dont go around asking if its alright for you to marry the one you love, why should we?" i am not going to believe everything that the government or my religion tells me. im sorry that is forcing something down my throat that i dont morally support i am going to stand up for myself and support what i want and think what i want-my parents and i have different views- i will not tolerate anyone and even my parents to force something down my throat that i do not believe is correct for me, my friends or my nation. and you cant be 100% against something but support someone or something that is engaging in it, thats contradicting your self. [br] [br] C: i am 100% against it, but i will not sacrifice a friendship because we have different views. And i refuse to be someone who abandons their friends in thier time of need. i will support HER and be there for her. I cant change her mind, so all i can do is pray for her and be there for her. [br] [br] L: im not saying that you should sacrifice your relationship with your friend but just because youre friends doesnt mean that you have to support her. i have had many occasions where i have had friends not support me in my decisions. but you are making the acception with your beliefs. thats just like saying that you are 100% abortion but if one of your friends got it you would support her because you didnt want to sacrifice your friendship[br] [br] C: what i meant was, i wouldnt abandon her. If one of my friends WAS getting an abortion, i would know that theyre going through a very hard time, and the last thing they need is me telling them that theyre a bad person. Yes, i would try to help, but if they wont take my advice, the only thing i can do for them is to be there for them. [br] And about me posting my opinions, I do believe i have the right to post this, just as you have the right to comment, just as you all have the right to comment. What debate is NOT meant for is saying that someone doesnt have the right to bring up an issue that is important to them, because then this just wouldnt be America anymore. As you can see, I didnt tag anyone on this note, because it is not directed at anyone. It is simply a note of my beliefs, and I am allowed to believe whatever I want. and yes, i am aware that people question their beliefs. If we didnt, we'd be blindly following our religion. And blind religion just isnt religion anymore. [br] [br] C: to an earlier comment on me being close minded: I would like to point out that I was not brought up close minded, I have developed opinions on my own. I have lived and traveled and experienced many different cultures and religions in my life so far, and all my opinions have formed from that. I dont have two catholic parents looking over my shoulder every second, expecting me to follow catholicism. Actually, it is with debating with my father that made me begin to really feel strongly about issues. Just because i happen not to agree with you on certain topics does not mean i am close minded. [br] There was an earlier comment about "letting people live how they want to live" and such. I ask you let me do the same. I mentioned that i do not look down upon those who are gay, and i ask that all of you do the same for those who think gay marriage is wrong. [br] [br] to Christians who haven't yet decided where they stand: http://www.robgagnon.net/homoPresbyTodayArticle.htm[br] [br] C: I wasnt gonna say anthing but I feel that all of the people reading this are taking it the wrong way and then feel the need to attack jennifer. She expessed HER opinion on HER facebook. She's not asking anyone to agree with her. She is simple expressing a beleif that she is passionate about. There is nothing wrong with that. And once yall started attacking her she defended it. Theres nothing wrong with having a discussion about your opinions but yall dont need to attack her. If you are so defensive, go write your own blog and rant all you want. Everyone has their own beliefs and no matter how much yall argue your not going to change anyones mind. It's good to see the other side on things and everyone makes good points but dont make it personal. Jennifer wasnt meaning this to be personal or directed to anyone in particular, so dont make it that. You have the right to state your opinion but your not going to change eachothers mind so theres no reason to get all worked up about it. Jennifer: I really respect you for hanging through all this. I know it's hard to have an opinion that not many agree with but like sheila said: your not alone. I agree with you 2 :D[br] [br] C: Wow...you guys. You're entitled to your opinions and to address them as such. But in NO way does ANYONE have the right to attack the person who states their opinion. What purpose does it serve to attack the person? It won't make them change their minds, or make them feel like they are wrong. It's a great thing to be able to comfortably talk about views and beliefs. It gives everyone the potential to see things in a different light. That's progress. What kind of progress do we get by insulting people? There is none. All it does is leave people angry and full of hurt feelings. The world is already filled with enough drama and anger. Why create it ourselves? [br] I think it's great that people feel so strongly about something, and are willing to state it. I hope no one finds offense in this. Like I said, it's wonderful of you all to state your opinions, even if it's completely different from someone else. [br] [br] C: to a comment earlier about Jesus not saying that homosexuality was wrong: 1 Corinthian 6:9 Paul mentions “men who lie with males”, and the Bible DOES mention homosexuality. Man-male intercourse in Lev 18:22 and 20:13 are in a list of things that risk not inheriting the kingdom of God. In Mark 10:2-12, Jesus cited two texts from Genesis, 1:27 and 2:24, that back up Paul’s critique of homosexual practice. I guess this only matters if youre Catholic and think that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. [br] [br] C: And sort of in response to what has been said, please to not attack me, I can only say what I believe. I am NOT attacking anyone! [br] But you ARE free to state your opinions on the ISSUE, even if they contradict mine. [br] [br] C: haha o i do love a good debate. ive read most of the commentsand for the record, jennifer i agree completely, 100% with what you say. cudos to you for standing up for what you believe in! =] i have a few comments of my own if yall dont mind. ok here it goes..... [br] yeah um homosexuality is most definitely a CHOICE!! yep i will say it again: a CHOICE!!! and i will give you a perfectly logical explanation for it. if it was genetic or related to something of that sort, homosexuality would have died out by now because i dont know if youve noticed or not but....GAY PEOPLE CANT HAVE KIDS!! i mean its a scientific fact people! "sexual relations" between gays does not give them the physical capacity to have children. [br] homosexuality fully and completely against the natural law of humans. i dont know if yall have actually thought through this before but heres a good metaphor: plugs and sockets. the plug goes into the socket. simple right? yep and no one with common sense would attempt to put two plugs together or two sockets together....electricity wasnt made to work that way and neither were humans: (sorry for getting visual here but it seems this is necessary...) the penis goes into the vagina. it is just as simple...you cant have two of each...it just doesnt work. and for all of you catholics out there, one of the purposes of marriage and the union of a man and wife is to procreate. oh and by the way, if you pick and choose what you want to believe from the Church, you are what is called a cafeteria catholic. and before you go all crazy on me for saying that (because ive gotten yelled at for saying that before) it is not meant to offend you. thats just what its called when you pick and choose your beliefs from the faith. let me say it again.... THAT WAS NOT MEANT TO OFFEND YOU......just so we are clear. thats right im still not done. something interesting you may not know about me: I LOVE GAY PEOPLE. they are awesome to go shopping with and hang out with. they are made in the image and likeness of God and i love them to death. you know what i hate though?? when they act on it and break all forms of moral decency left on the planet. if someone feels that they are gay and try everything they can and just feel that they cannot change, then that person is just going to have to stay chaste. and i know what you are thinking: "Chaste?! yeah right! that is so stupid! and thats not fair!" well for your information chastity is not this great evil that most people make it out to be. its a beautiful thing that shows great strength in a person and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.its just like a normal single person. like jennifer said, the catholic church does not accept gay marriage as a sacramental union and therefore condemn any sexual activity (notice i said activity not person) resulting from a gay marriage. and it is completlely possible to hate the sin and not the sinner. you might say, "well its really difficult to not judge a person based on their actions" and you are right. i said it was possible, not easy. judging others is a vice that many of us, including myself, have to work on. however, that is referring to us as individuals. the Catholic Church as a whole, the infallible(on matters of faith and morals) Church that was established by Jesus Christ and that has withstood the tests of time for over 2000 years, is able to rise above judgment and see the person made in the image and likeness of God. [br] that is pretty much all ive got....anything else has pretty much been said so yeah. wow that felt good. [br] [br] C: felt good on this side too :D[br] [br] L: ok im sorry if i ever offended anyone but i did make a point that the majority of what i said was from a PAPER and not to hurt anyone or their opinions. [br] and caroline being gay is not a CHOICE! no one, and once again i mean NO ONE! chooses to live an oppressed life. you really think that people want to wake up one day and say 'i think ill be gay today' no. and as for morals-YOUR morals might be to not act in sexual activity with another one of the same sex but that is not your position to define someone else's morals based on your own. and being gay, once again, is a chemical imbalance in your body! saying that they chose to be gay rather than straight is like saying a child with autism chose to be autistic rather than normal! or a black man decided to be black instead of white! whether you like it or not the same God that you preach about in your faith and catholic church MADE these people Gay...they did not make themselves gay and they most deffinitaly choose to live such an oppressed life! you think its easy to live a life that is not accepted as 'normal' its not! these people cant have their own children, these people cant even adopt as easily as others, these people did not choose to come out to their parents and be scorned upon for who they are! just because your gay doesnt mean that you chose that lifestyle it was given to you...now whether you are gay and ignore it or whether you are gay and act upon it should be no ones business besides their own! and i am not gay but this sums it up[br] "First they came for the Jews. And I did not speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists and I did not speak out because I wasn't a Trade Unionist. Then they came for Me and then there was no one left to speak out for me." [br] ~Pastor Martin Niemoller[br] C: There is no scientific evidence that being gay is a chemical imbalance in your brain! If so I would very much like to see the report myself. It is simply a theory that some people have come up with to explain and perhaps justify their actions. We do however have scientific proof about autism, and you know what, even though kids have autism, many have been able to overcome that obstacle. [br] Even more clear is the fact that God did NOT make these people gay. I have already posted a list of Bible verses directed at this, but I can bring some down again: Lev 18:22 states and I QUOTE: "No man is to have sexual relations with another man; God hates that." AND Lev 20:13 states "If a man has sexual relations with another man, they have done a disgusting thing, and both shall be put to death. They are responsible for their own death. "[br] Now, obviously we dont put them to death, but this SHOWS us that God clearly does not approve. [br] And if you dont believe me, look it up yourself. [br] I have heard the saying, "God wont give you what you cant handle." Which in this case, means that if you are gay, truly believe that you cant be anything else, and still wish to please God and follow his law, then you can look at it this way: God has placed this thought process upon you. This may be a test from God, to all of us, we really have no way of knowing. All we know is what the Bible says. So if you are gay and christian, you can think of yourself as being the ultimate example for others. Celibacy, as Caroline mentioned earlier, is beautiful. Especially celibacy for God. It shows strength and character, and post definitely piety. Above all, i think the ability to have the courage and strength to choose celibacy shows wisdom. Self-control of your own body is something that should NOT be looked down upon, but praised. [br] [br] C: sigh, i wasn't going to write here but.... okay i'm not much on debating (mainly because i'm not exactly great at debating) and i also don't mean to offend you or belittle you or however you take this as, i simply don't get whats going on here.......so what you're saying is that gay people are oppressed?, are you saying that for our country or the world? cause last time i checked homosexuality is very much accepted in other countries of the world, and even in our neck of the world, there are prominent, prospering, gay people... again i'm only trying to see more on your view because i'm not exactly clear on your definition of oppressed. okay now, i don't think your saying that "being gay, once again, is a chemical imbalance in your body" is credible, you are not a doctor, nor are you gay yourself...so how do you know? i mean i can see your analogies to autistics and black people, but the difference genetics is proven fact...you can't say that gay people inherited their "gayness" from their parents because well, that would just be impossible (for reasons why, read the above 40 some odd comments its in there somewhere) [br] [br] L: ok jennifer my sister is autistic and my dad is the president of her school. www. avondalehouse.com if you would like to see it...there is absolutely NO cure or idea where it comes from. JUST to clear that up because that is something that i deal with daily. not one child with autism has overcome it not ONE they have physical therapy and therapy to learn the basics for life. my sisters group home folds pizza boxes for a job..thats overcoming autism isn't it? [br] second of all if youre claiming that my scientific knowledge of being gay is a chemical imbalance is just a theory than so is your scientific knowledge that comes from some psychiatric ward in 1973. [br] robin i didnt mean to offend you if you are gay, i think that i read it somewhere in here, but what i mean by 'oppressed' is that ((and my sister and her friends have all cleared this up with me)) they dont hold hands walking down the street, they dont come out very easily for a while because they feel like they will be looked down upon or shunned from their own family and friends. they gave me the line 'oppressed life' line and it seems to fit the words i have to say perfectly. i dont know for sure but from family experience daily my sister tells me that if she could she would be straight and she would love to grow old with a man and have children, she just cant-and shes tried. [br] [br] C: Romans 1 1:24-27, "And so God has given those people over to do the filthy things with their hearts desire, and they do shameful things with each other. They exchange the truth about God for a lie; they worship and serve what God has created instead of the Creator Himself, who is to be praised forever! Amen. Because they do this, God has given them over to shameful passions. Even the women pervert the natural use of their sex by unnatural acts. In the same way the men give up natural sexual relations with women and burn with passions for each other. Men do shameful things with each other, and as a result they bring upon themselves the punishment they deserve for their wrongdoing." [br] The Bible SPECIFICALLY mentions that homosexual activity is wrong, in both the new and old testament. [br] [br] L: and once again last time on the catholic theory. you can not sit here and push your religion on someone because not everyone in this country is catholic not everyone believes in the bible and not everyone wants a country run by catholic values. there are other people and im sorry to say it but our country was built on freedom! just because your religious views say in a summary 'no gays' doesnt mean that everyone else of this nations do. and i highly highly doubt that any catholic would rather find herself or himself to be a gay rather than to follow God's word if this is exactly what he meant. [br] [br] C: there have been people known to overcome autism: Christopher Knowles, an American poet. Birger Sellin, an author from Germany. [br] And about the chemical imbalances: No scientific evidence that I have seen so far. However, the report in 1973 was based off a series of trials and experiments. [br] On pushing my religion: The statements from the Bible were only meant to respond to the statements that "nowhere in the Bible does God say 'dont be gay'". Obviously if someone were atheist, they wouldnt care what the Bible says, and i would have no argument. But since people here have said that God never mentions homosexuality in the Bible, or that God made them that way, i have responded in kind. What i meant by "no argument", was that i would have no argument if i were to only use the Bible as my proof. And as a Catholic, I have to stand up for what I believe in. I cant just keep my mouth shut in fear that i'll offend someone, just as you do. If we were all afraid that we'd offend someone, noone would ever speak out for or against anything. I really dont like how people, even Catholics, claim that people try to force religion down other's throats, because thats just not true. As a Catholic, i believe certain things, and i am going to vote according to my belief system. about our country being built on freedom: I heard lyrics to a song recently that very much summed up the situation America has found itself in. "How much dignity will we pay for the price of freedom?" [br] [br] C: okay, well i'm not gay, but i must say that although you and your family have their own experiences, in my experience, i've seen gays as pretty open, as in not being afraid to show and express themselves with pride and dignity, embracing who they are, not caring what others think of them...no offense to your sister or you, but if your sister really can't help being who she is, and there really is no choice in the matter, she should have nothing to fear because thats how God made her[br] [br] L: ok jennifer if you claim your argument is only based on your religious views then you should not have once mentioned in your note a word about the government-its called separation of church and sate-and two Christopher Knowles Birger Sellin have not come over autism! these people might have been misdiagnosed! there is absolutely NO cure for autism! no not one! i can PROMISE you that, if there was a cure for autism then any one in my family would give up their lives for my sister i can honestly tell you that for a fact-and not a theory- that there is no absolute cure for autism i cant stress this enough! [br] and just because you havent seen what i have doesnt mean that mine is a theory and yours is true...your eyes dont pass it as a theory or not. and robin my sister was scared she didnt know what to do, one of my brothers still doesnt know because he said he hates gays all of the time, and even though God has MADE HER THAT (not stressing that on you) it is still difficult to walk outside every day and open herself up to the world. it is not easy to be Gay and she tells me that im not making that up and even though God has made her that, doesnt mean that it isnt difficult for her to live her daily life. [br] [br] C: When I said "overcome" i did not mean "cured". Overcome means despite their conditions, they were able to accomplish what people with autism are not thought to be able to accomplish. [br] Here are NON religious reason why gay marriage should not be permitted: [br] Further weaken the family, the first and best defense against an ever-encroaching government. [br] # Encourage children to experiment with homosexuality. This will put more kids at risk for HIV, hepatitis A, B and C, HPV, syphilis, gonorrhea, etc[br] Homosexual households are also more prone to domestic violence. For example: “The incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population,” according to D. Island and P. Letellier in Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them (New York: Haworth Press, 1991). [br] A study in the Journal of Social Service Research reported that “slightly more than half of the [lesbians surveyed] reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner.” (G. Lie and S. Gentlewarrior, “Intimate Violence in Lesbian Relationships: Discussion of Survey Findings and Practice Implications,” No. 15, 1991.) More cites can be found in Tim Dailey, The Negative Health Effects of Homosexuality, Insight paper, Family Research Council, 2001. [br] Put more children at risk as adoption agencies abandon the crrent practice of favoring married households and begin placing more children in motherless or fatherless households. [br] Encourage more people to remain trapped in homosexuality rather than seek to re-channel their desires toward normal sexuality. [br] Pit the law and our government against the beliefs of tens of millions of people who believe homosexuality is wrong. [br] Information taken from: [br] Knight, Robert. "‘Gay Marriage’ is Not Only Wrong; It’S Socially Destructive." Cwfa.Org. 2 Feb. 2008 .[br] [br] And nowhere in here does it say that my argument is solely based on my religious views, I want that to be clear. [br] [br] L: jennifer children with autism have different severities...my sister didnt know how to walk until she was four she has never spoken a word in her life, her household room mates though some of them know how to talk theres a boy robert who when i go to pick my sister up says 'christina forgetta april 7th' he has remembered that it was my birthday april 7th from the first time i have ever met him. the severity of the persons case depends. these people might have been able to do amazing things with their lives but that doesnt mean that they have over come autism it means that they have been able to cope and accomplish something in their lives while having autism. and once again a person can get STDs anywhere! gay people are not the only ones with STDs! and one who is gay doesnt seek to encourage people to be gay! they dont go up to people and say 'hey will you please be gay and this is why....'people know if theyre straight or gay...just like i know im pro gay rights and youre against them[br] and a child in a gay home doesnt necessarily turn out to be gay! and domestic violence lives in a lot of homes! not just gay homes! stop singling these people out and acting like they are he god damn devil they arent theyre people too! straight people get divorces straight people have domestic violence and straight people have raised gay people!!!!!!! [br] C: The reason I said that yours was a theory was because you have yet to give me scientific evidence. Instead, you simply tell me that its a chemical imbalance without any evidence. I have already shown you my evidence. I have a credible source, The American Psychiatric Organization, and you have yet to show me a credible source that backs your opinion. [br] Please keep this note clean. I dont want any cussing or swearing on here. This note is for exchanging ideas. [br] I never ONCE said that straight people do not experience hardships in the home. And again, the evidence I presented was not something I made up. Statistically, domestic violence is DOUBLE in homosexual homes. According to study, MOST lesbians have been abused by a partner. I have already stated that fact. I also never said that gay people are the only ones with STDs, but STATISTICALLY they are more prone to get them. I believe I have already mentioned that. [br] And like I said before, I dont hate or dislike gay people at all. This note is not about gay PEOPLE its about the ACT. Please try to stay on topic. [br] And i do appreciate well-thought debate, but please read carefully what I write. More than once here I have been accused of saying something i did not say, so exact quotes would be useful, because I really dont like repeating. Thanks. [br] [br] C: Gay marriage is not a state right for your stated reasons that it is a holy bond belonging to a MAN AND A WOMAN and not a civic recognition of two people who live together. If that is it then i am married cause i live with many others in my dorm, but as i do not consider myself married the civil recognition of living together is not valid. I believe that only to be a marriage God must enter into the relatonship for it to be a valid marriage. For God to enter into it there must be not only right intent, but also right action which means you must truely love the person and it must follow the eternal, natural, and divine laws set down by God at the beginning of time. Nothing not even man is above these laws and I believe that one of them is advesrs to same sex marriages. It is known that the the functions of marriage is to one procreate as was Gods ultimate command to adamah or man in hebrew. Be fruitful and multiply is unmistakably meant to be for the procreation of the human race. It is a biological fact that a man and a man or a woman and a woman can not procreate. the obvious conclusioon is that we are suppost to have a marriage of a male and a female. [br] [br] L: "The fact is, you need more than just love in a healthy marriage, that much is certain. I hate to sound so...I dont know what the word is, but homosexuals physically cant satisfy each other like a man and a woman can." [br] jennifer i completely honor your right to have an opinion and to state it, but this statement is wrong on many levels. marriage is based on love and therefore all you need is love to have a successful marriage. If love was not the basis and root of marriage, what would be? money, sex, kids?. to say that two men and two women can't satisfy each other physically and spiritually is ignorant to the homosexual and heterosexual message of love. Love is a free flowing feeling that cannot be contained. you should not be condemned for loving someone, man or woman. [br] [br] C: Love IS the basis to a healthy marriage, but it is not the only thing you need. You need compatibility, you need trust, respect, a physical attraction. For a HEALTHY, THRIVING marriage, you need to support each other regarding to beliefs. "Chick flicks" today are very misleading, teaching us that all we need is love. But that just isnt true. If all you need is love, like I said before, we would all marry our first loves and stay with them forever. But now, our divorce rates are higher than ever. People may have been in love once, but if they arent compatible, the marriage will not succeed. Being "compatible" and "having the same personality" are not the same. Compatibility implies that you must complement your partner. Today we have spouses cheating on each other, yet they are still in love with their spouse, which is why they wont leave them for their mistress or lover. Like i said before, you CAN fall in love with someone completely wrong for you. [br] [br] L: Gay people can have kids. they are not unable to have relations with the opposite sex, they just chose not to. and if you didn't want this to turn into a heated debate, why did you comment on such a touchy subject on a web note so that others could respond? you can block comments. [br] [br] C: None of us here are married, so we really cant say what is necessary for a healthy marriage. My parents are divorced. The past six or so years have filled my mother with wisdom, and I have been lucky enough to have learned from her. The fact is, that even though my mother loved my dad, they werent compatible. Contrary to what most people believe, love can fade. My dad's did. Older couples with a successful marriage have all been through tough times, and they can all tell you that you have to MAKE a marriage work. You cant just get married and live happily ever after. Its a daily challenge. But thats what makes marriage so beautiful and so sacred. The fact that a marriage is difficult to maintain only shows us how holy a healthy one really is. [br] I dont want to block comments. I want people to ask questions and have them answered. I want people to add and contribute. Debate is healthy. I just dont want people to insult each other. Debate is arguing on an ISSUE, not attacking one another. [br] And I am fully aware that gay people can have kids, there isnt anything different about their bodies, they just obviously cant have any with each other. But I feel like im stating the obvious here. [br] [br] L: why do two men have to be completely wrong for one another? compatibility in its definition does not specifically state that they have to be opposite. [br] for me it is ridiculous to try and convince you of my beliefs because you are so rooted in your own. but when you post things like this, you are hurting many people. i am not gay, but i have family that are. and when you are condemning them you are hurting me. i have many things that i want to say, but i will not because i feel it is point less. jennifer i think you are wrong to be so firm and non understanding towards others. [br] thats all i will contribute to this note. [br] [br] C: I never said that only men were wrong for men. Heterosexuals can be wrong for each other as well, thats what I was referring to. I was commenting on the fact that you need more than love. I said that compatibility is NECISARRY, gay or not. [br] EVERYONE: I am NOT condemning ANYONE! I KNOW i have said this time and time again, but I do not look down upon ANY gay person. And i ALSO i believe I have said this before, but i cannot keep my mouth shut because of a fear of offending people. I can post what I believe, just as you all can say what you believe. Noone should be taking this personally. [br] And to all of you who knew me in high school: You know that I have NEVER hurt anyone, intentionally or unintentionally. I never had open arguments with anyone. I was always polite and respectful. And now that I have posted something that you dont agree with, suddenly, im a terrible person? If i wanted to direct this at someone, I would have tagged them. [br] [br] L: I was going to leave this be and let you have your close minded ideas be as ignorant as they really are to me and let you think them with out me helping change your mind. Chloe's right and I didnt see this before either, but your ideas really are hurtful to me and my family as well...sorry if this hurt you but now you know what its like to be shunned upon because of your ideas and what you think should and shouldnt be right. im done with this but i hope that you encounter a gay person that you love more than your own life and realize that if marriage makes them happy then let it be with out interfearance from any other person. [br] [br] C: Wow... everyone's in the kitchen but no one is using the same ingredients to cook. [br] No wonder it's a mess. [br] Self-Analysis is the most feared thing (fact, ask any psychologist, professional please, not undergrad...). Everyone must step back from what is going on and regain the bigger picture or else the line you are all trying to draw will wind up at the beginning again. [br] Anyways...*Before replying on pure emotion as this thread shows, read to the end, gather ideas, splurg*[br] Let's try to agree on some terms before we go on, because it's laughably obvious that no one means the same thing even though the words are the same... [br] Gay - What does it mean to be gay? (or lesbian, proof that society sees a differential mistake that it's too scared correct, if you want to talk about 'lesbian-hood' msg me, it's all a big joke) Is gay just the rejection or disaffection for the other gender? Is gay feeling more affectionate towards the same gender over the other? Is it a tumor that grows somewhere no one has yet found in our finite, hormone driven bodies? [br] Compatibility - What does it mean to be compatible? Is it finishing each other's sentences? Is it resisting the urge to strangle them with a pillow? Is it certain abilities to produce offspring? Is it the ability to fulfill one's lifetime with an emotion? [br] *hang in there! keep the temp. down!* [br] "for me it is ridiculous to try and convince you of my beliefs because you are so rooted in your own." - Chloe Christine[br] wait what? It's like what you are saying is I can't get you to believe me because you believe your own things... [br] oh wait, you are saying that, just checking thanks[br] *onward in this inconsistancy test!* [br] There are a good percentage (#1) of married straight people that don't like each other anymore. There's obviously a high divorce rate in this country (#2). Now, many points FOR gay marriage in this thread (#3) come from the idea that 'unhappy people get married and divorced'/'if one gay couple can adopt/live/love each other, then all can'. [br] What about civil union? Let's fight for the civil union of two men/women. Yes! We've finally got civil union now! Now let's fight for marriage, because union should just be marriage anyways, we (#4) want equal rights! cont. [br] #1 - personal assumption[br] #2 - again, assumption from my small, daily life in this big world[br] #3 - Also from political debates, source MSNBC.com video diary of political debates, note that it's not their news, just recorded broadcasts of national tv. [br] #4 - 'We' meaning 'of the homosexual pathos, source is a gay co-worker, because not all gay people think the same, so stop being so closed minded[br] And that bring me to another point. [br] How belitting is it for you (#5) to speak for an entire 'gay' community (#6) about what you have learned from a few (#7) and what your 'emotions' or 'conscience' might tell you is right. Tell me what every black person (#8) during the mid 1700's believed about slavery and then I might reconsider. As further proof on this split in assumed ideas by the earlier arguments, I offer up this... cont. [br] #5 - 'You' being relative to the reader[br] #6 - 'gay commuity' being anyone of that pathos, source is me until God or a doctor shows me otherwise (an autopsy would substitute for bonus points) [br] #7 - 'few' being few, because you don't know how many people are gay, end of discussion[br] #8 - 'black person' being black person, because not every human of dark skin color is 'african american', America... [br] -What about civil union? Let's fight for the civil union of two men/women. [br] -Yes! We've finally got civil union now! Now let's fight for marriage, because union should just be marriage anyways, we want equal rights! [br] -Yay! Now we have equal political rights! Let's fight for Equal Natural Rights (#9) now! [br] -oh wait[br] It reads harsh because it is harsh. Americans are scared to take on charge. In the same stance, Americans are scared to revert back from what they have changed.(#10) There is something that is unachieveable by two men/women. It is the most precious of all living qualities. The ability to create life. (#11) [br] #9 - 'Equal Natural Rights' being 4 + 4 = 8, or for those who still haven't understood a word of any of my satirical posts, the ability to do something greater than yourself, because one with another and create life. [br] #10 - A generation fought a war to end slavery, imagine the fight to get it back... [br] #11 - It's the most precious because it gave you your PRIVILEGE to be among the living, to EVER EXIST[br] To anyone whom not of the book (#12) [br] You owe your sole existence to a bond that only a man and a woman can have. [br] No same sex gender could have created you. Be it forceful intercource (#13) [br] or not, try to fathom never coming into existence. Just take 5 seconds to picture nothing. Then try imagining that nothing being all there is. No chance to log on facebook. No chance to convince your dad to be with a woman (#14) and create you. You are the product of another's choice to be hetreosexual. [br] The key word here being choice. [br] #12 - 'of the book' being the bible, quran, torah. 'Not of' being 'not a follower'[br] #13 - 'forceful intercourse' being the courts term for rape or unwanted sex[br] #14 - 'be with a woman' being a polite way of saying intercourse... [br] btw, if anyone never understood what my numbers (#XX) meant, they are just astriks ** I use as side notes because I don't want to interupt reading with unnecesary things like (blah blah blah) or 3 sentences of 'no offense' statements. [br] Honestly though, by saying 'no offense' in one post and not another, you are saying that the other posts were actually meant to offend when we know no one is hear to offend others. (other than satire :p) [br] spell check is a great thing... hear hear? lol @ myself[br] [br] C: ok i definitely have to say something now. i was just going to stay out of this b/c i know that i would accidently offend someone or tick someone off and cause a catfight. i've been there and its not fun. actually i've been there already on facebook and its not fun. anyways... [br] Jennifer, i'd like to say that i back you up and agree w/you. i agree w/you 100% and an extra 10% b/c you're my friend. i'm really glad and proud that you've been able to hold your own beliefs and defend them w/a passion someone can only admire. [br] i believe that God loves everyone. we all do. he loves us down to our very essence b/c he created us...in his image. he is divine and therefore he is perfect, however, we are human and therefore flawed. we are not perfect. as much as we try and as much as we pray we'll never be perfect. this entire note has discussed gays and their "marriages" and people have attacked, been attacked, and everyone has been hurt. whether or not gays are born gay or they choose is there own business. that's their choice. its b/w them and God. whether or not you are gay, straight, jew, gentile, catholic, protestant, white, black, mexican, purple, whatever, we'll all end up going through judgement. it's your choice. and contrary to the other belief if you are "born gay" and wish to be straight, then that is your own burden to bear. people are saying that they are "oppressed". everyone is oppressed at one point in their life, its part of growing up and living a life, surviving a life. gays don't have to act all pitiful b/c they're oppressed. christ was oppressed, did he pity himself? no. he lived a miraculous life living God's word and living a life that we all should try to do. [br] ok, w/marriage. none of us have been married or are ready to be married. we don't have true love b/c we're simply too young and inexperienced with life. so none of us can truly comprehend what a marriage needs to thrive on w/out fully experiencing it ourselves. but from other marriages, we know that a true marriage is based upon the mutual love between a man and a woman. other than love there is respect, compassion, compatibility, attraction, friendship, loyality, trust, reliance, and "oneness"...physically. a man and a woman's sex is the most beautiful gift that God has given us. it is a gift that should be treasued and given to only your husband or wife...not a partner. sex is the utmost way a husband and a wife can be truly one. a woman+woman or man+man cannot experience this. there is not procreation on a gay's mind when they are having sex. that's lust. i'm agreeing w/jennifer by being against gay marriage. i'm not at ALL against people being gay. i'm against their actions. not only am i against gay marriage, but i'm also against pre-marital sex. a gay "marriage" is pre-marital sex. why? b/c a marriage is a covenant binding a man and a woman with God's blessing. since the catholic church (i know everyone is not catholic but this is my belief and i am fully entitled to say this...) is against gay marriage and they do not...how would you say...give consent to that marriage, then it is NOT a marriage. there was no sacrament. so any sex that is "gone through" in a gay marriage is in fact pre-marital sex b/c it wasn't a marriage to begin with!!! [br] i thought i had to get that out. i don't mean to offend anyone or anything and i'm trying to be as understanding as a most possibly can in this note. we all have our own beliefs and jennifer, me, or anyone else against gay marriage in this note isn't trying to say that your own opinions are wrong. we all have our own beliefs and we're not changing them. (CONT on part 2)
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